Alpha      discussion

@   antharikshYou display many qualities, a teacher is likely to aspire to have. Perhaps you are a teacher. A goodly one at that; could even be godly. Thanks for the patience and care you showed.
For a learned discourse, I have neither any serious knowledge of modern psychology nor a deep understanding of the wisdom of the ancient. However, my gut feeling is this: “Life is a property of matter. When 'suitable conditions' are met, life evolves and continues to do so. Perhaps those conditions are set 'intentionally' by something transcendent. Perhaps it happens as an accident.... The senses are our (only?) windows through which we “see” (realize) reality. That something some say 'knowledge beyond senses'is probably the result of previous sensory knowledge remaining submerged, but surfaces ocasionally, probably, unconsciously”... Of course this is not at all a 'profession-evaluate​​​d' view; neither is it 'original'.
I like to fix the ancient wisdom of India into this view of reality, if possible. For there is some significance for Indian rational thought and it can be of some use to mankind in the present-world turmoil. Can we give a rooting to it, in the 21st century soil?
For example, what does transcendental mean? That transcends beyond senses? If so what is it? What evidence is there for its existence? Or, is it something moving towards the ultimate?... Or, if it is something else, the proponents would prefer to keep vague, it is a different matter? Some kind of Indian Rope Trick at the thought level, that is not to be taken seriously...
Your rising up on the wings of imagination and giving an ethereal aura to the word 'vague' touched me... Where is it mentioned, “Forsooth only the gods may know. Forsooth even they may not”?...True, the 'vague' is, perhaps, related to the sublime.
However in a search for the 'true', perhaps, a precise defining of terms may be more suitable. Now permit me to meditate (not in a void or tending to the void) over the ideas you have supplied and come back to you after a while... But then, how to get in touch with you again, I wonder. On MSN space itself? After a month or so?... My respects.
anthariksh
17 February 2011 09:59:09
alpha.. joy to be with you
''In all humility, let me say, my scepticism doesn't disappear...''
let me say boldly that i know very little, not really qualified to clarify, yet , your queries make me explore in my self a little beyond, and discover answers. i admire your search till you get at the right thing.
''your view appears to move to the vague to establish the superiority of the 'beyond senses' over the senses.''
very righ_t !!!
here   i   t_end  to become a little poetic on vague.
vague---unclear,unseen,mysterious, awesome, probably ,unreachable, unpredictable, secrete, un earthly, uncommon ,unknown, strange, puzzling   ----is what  which has been/will be propelling the mankind, with its infinite charm, having infinite attraction----to keep his search of  it for ever from ages , thru ages,, never ending, adding enthusiasm, energy, drive,purpose, in life.
on the way mankind has discovered/encountered/invented most wonder****l things such as arts,sciences, religions, gods, ---in short ---a civilization, a sense of living, a triumph, yet his walk has not reached the destination, just missing it in trifle. his desire to know is insatiable, he treads on ---probably daring all obstacles mental and physical risking everything --including the life itself.
ye_t_  i_t_ evades,yet invites, gives glimpses, vanishes, sings melodies, and sits silent -- an eternal game ,playing hide and seek. ---unabling and enabling simultaneously --dancing in its own tune and to its own  rhythm. ever inspiring, ever disappointing. making him to swing in a  cradle of belief and disbelief.
let me not get lost here, it being a joy to get lost in its pursuit, danger of losing track is a possibility.
''the superiority of the 'beyond senses' over the senses.''
indeed it is !! it being the master, master of the universe. jagannaayak
''analogy of the 'blind' to tell me something ****ut the senses. But the blind man has other senses and through them he realizes his surroundings. Doesn't he?''
blind man lacks the sight, he does not lack the ability to visualize, --this analogy is given to establish a fact that the existence of mind as a separate en****y
''We humans, realize what you hint as the 'beyond senses' too, possibly, through our senses''
initially senses are the[essential] means to take in the means to know the one beyond the senses.
depending on the system of approach, themeans or the mediumto explore within may be a form[of god], thru eyes, a song/a bhajan/ a sound/ a manthra thru ears, a pooja , chandana smearing on forehead / touching the feet of god thru touch, taking a theertha/prasada thru tongue, inhaling and feeling the fragrance of flower or incense thru nose ---all these help to turn within
---to a degree only---the mind after receiving these means ready to launch in the waters---yes ok so far----the means like _a_  b_o_at is/are essential
after reaching mid ocean, the mind has to take a dive to the ultimate depth-----possible by getting rid of the means [b_o_a_t] ****lly, free to reach its destination easily and fast.
so senses which are essential initially are usef_u_l to that extent only
****rther means is the mind itself.
''Do we have any other 'window of knowledge'?''
for knowledge ****ut external only 5 senses
for knowledge ****ut internal ,the mind--the single window!!
and the transcendent is the windowless, ****ll vision , the internal sky, the infinite, in which resides the true knowledge, vedic richas  ''richo akshare parame vyoman......''
our tradition imparts this ability to directly access to this window and the vista in our upanayana in adolescence. lays stress on internal .
we did miss this and became victims of the ensuing suffering, and no alternative to come out except to gain track back
alphaomega99
#4
17 February 2011 00:47:50
@   anthariksh16 February 2011 21:16:56
In all humility, let me say, my scepticism doesn't disappear...At some level your view appears to move to the vague to establish the superiority of the 'beyond senses' over the senses. You appear to go to the analogy of the 'blind' to tell me something ****ut the senses. But the blind man has other senses and through them he realizes his surroundings. Doesn't he?
We humans, realize what you hint as the 'beyond senses' too, possibly, through our senses. Do we have any other 'window of knowledge'?
anthariksh
#5
16 February 2011 21:16:56
alpha.. senses are gross extension of mind---film has to exist to receive image thru lens
'senses cause the thinking process'
yes, but thinking process continues too when senses are conveying
this proves existence of mind, a blind also thinks
''The 'thought process' that gets refined during meditation appears very much the result of sensory experiences''
no, refining happens due to in-march of, rather, in march happens in perceiving the thought in its earlier and earlier states of development, in this process senses turn inward, the activity of them reduces ,coming to 0 at the end
''True there are 'things' which cannot come to the notice of our 5 (or more, perhaps) senses, but we realize their existence through our deductions from our sensory observations''
yes but due to existence of mind in addition to senses, and happens in and by mind
senses are 5 of perception and 5 of action=10
again, senses are gross tools, processor is mind, whi****-is- subtle
''we call those 'beyond senses' as spiritual, forgetting the fact that we cannot realize its existence without our senses''
exactly! some unvisible are mental like our ability to store/recall/calculate
some -----much more unvisible are spiritual
''the word 'spiritual' is caused by our ignorance of the reality.''
rather by our cognition that some thing exists other than our familiar mind
''can't we reduce tm to a sensory feature?''
tm is not at a sensory level, it is a mental technique, unique.
there are other approaches to realization 1  on sensorylevel -- karma   pranayaam /bhajan/physical practicesetc  2  on intellectual level--gnyana --our discusion/swamijis discourses/books on philosophy  3  feeling level--bhakthi/poo****rayer etc
each has its suitability/effectiveness to suit different cons****utions/levels of individuals
explore  experience   select---is what is required
let me state, my suggestion is for going inward --by any approach--me not necessarily to stick to a system, nor me propagating any
tm is incidental in our discussion, and purely my personal choice out of many.
still if you ask me what is best , i have to say tm  is the bes**** has satisfied my all needs, simple, fast,easy, natural, just fits, no need of changing any aspect of life, universal
just 20 minutes morning and evening daily --but ,i repeat, to be learnt from a qualified instructor at centers.
alphaomega99
#6
16 February 2011 19:55:27

@   anthariksh 16 February 2011 10:38:55
My scepticism remains. My gut feeling (result of my previous experience, probably, arriving at some conclusions, which I may not consciously realize as taking place) is that 'senses cause the thinking process'. The possibility of a 'mind' existing outside the area of the senses appears very dim...The 'thought process' that gets refined during meditation appears very much the result of sensory experiences...True there are 'things' which cannot come to the notice of our 5 (or more, perhaps) senses, but we realize their existence through our deductions from our sensory observations. And, perhaps, we call those 'beyond senses' as spiritual, forgetting the fact that we cannot realize its existence without our senses.In other words, the word 'spiritual' is caused by our ignorance of the reality.
If it is acceptable a view, can't we reduce tm to a sensory feature?
anthariksh
#7
16 February 2011 10:38:55
alpha.. welcome, dear sir
Who you are I am not sure. My guess: one who keeps Mahesh Yogi and ancient Indian wisdom high.
you are right, thru tm i gained high ancient Indian wisdom in simplest way., not claiming my any thing, but tm has clarified a lot.
When I present my questions, it is not to glorify my view **** belittle yours. Only a kind of search; that is all.
most fair, we are one, sharing refines.
sear_c_h_ is valuable, ''knock, it shall be opened to you''
“...a child more than 6...” That “six”, possibly means one with “some” experience.
any one who can think, can meditate, nothing more required, even child
The implication may be: Meditation depends on previous experience. (that is why I included in my doubt, “what ****ut animals who don't have some of the 'abilities' of man. Admitted, they too have experience)
animals do not have ability to manipulate thought,whi_c_h- -is a subtle thing,  their mind works on gross plane
O****y conclude, meditation is ON some previously acquired 'knowledge'. That may mean, meditation 'refines' our earlier 'knowledge'.
the light of transcendent illumines the field of knowledge{earlier acquired}, which mostly exists in ,patches, [ being not f_u_ll]  and bridges the gaps, makes it whole, you may say refines
Am I far from what you want me to understand?
you are almost there but an inch of distance still to be covered
Again, you say “...deepest and beyond”. That, to my mind means, beyond “thought” to some other area.
yes, to the area from where thought sprouts pri_o_r  _t_o_ manifesting and becomes perceivable
For in the depth of thought there couldn't be, logically, anything beyond “deepest”.
totally righ_t_  _i_t_  is nothingness, a vacuum, vast, infinite
Possibly, you may be hinting at something beyond "senses”.
senses are gross tools of mind they have their role , as usual
If so I am sceptical.
in thinking process, mind is active , senses not involved .man is much more than senses, mind playing much more role,, a superior state, whi**** a desirable one, not deserving to be sceptical
For senses appear to me, the only means of knowledge possible for man.
definitely, but what is perceived is not total, but partial. to make it _f_u_ll, mind has to process much more and digest .there is ''more than meets the eye''
intellectual analysis/logic are in adequate, being the activities on the surface of mind, having thus limitation to fathom the depths, hence the need for direct experience, and hence the need of traditions.
alphaomega99
16 February 2011 09:44:23
@ anthariksh Who you are I am not sure. My guess: one who keeps Mahesh Yogi and ancient Indian wisdom high. When I present my questions, it is not to glorify my view; neither to belittle yours. Only a kind of search; that is all...Perhaps, a joint effort, if you permit me.
“...a child more than 6...” That “six”, possibly means one with “some” experience. The implication may be: Meditation depends on previous experience. (that is why I included in my doubt, “what of animals who don't have some of the 'abilities' of man. Admitted, they too have experience) I may conclude, meditation is ON some 'previously acquired knowledge'. That may mean, meditation 'refines' our earlier 'knowledge'. Am I far from what you want me to understand?
Again, you say “...deepest and beyond”. That, to my mind means, beyond “thought” to some other area. For in the depth of thought there couldn't be, logically, anything beyond “deepest”. Possibly, you may be hinting at something beyond "senses”. If so I am sceptical. For senses appear to me, the only means of knowledge possible for man. If there is sometning beyond senses, ONLY throuhg our senses we can realize that possibility of the existence of that knowledge beyond senses.
anthariksh
16 February 2011 06:07:23
alpha.. happy to have your noble presence, thanks
meditation is meant to lead the ignorant to light, previous experience not a requirement, even a child can  [6 years up].
meditation is --taking a  thought [meaning less one ] and gradually experiencing subtler and more subtler levels of it, reaching the subtlest and going beyond into nothing ness --called transcending.
it is not concentration, it is  rather experiencing  gradually the more subtler levels, you may call deep thinking, but is --going deep, deeper, deepest and beyond.
any animal/object /word with a form and meaning  leads to contemplation ,does not allow  to go beyond it --keeping the mind on surface., hence the need for meaning less thought, manthra.
you will come out after diving in--but cleansed.
being a subtle teaching, to be learnt from qualified teacher[i am not], to gain knowledge and the experience --with appropriate checks and follow ups initially, --all easy.
your english is nice
alphaomega99
16 February 2011 02:29:38
@ anthariksh 15 February 2011 08:02:43
Somehow, I remain sceptical. How can the ignorant, get light through meditation?... Can a child, without any previous experience of any light, meditate and gain light?... If so, what is meditation? ...Is it concentrated thinking?...Deep thinking?...Meditate​ on what?...Can an animal, that doesn't have some of the "abilities" of a man meditate?...I feel like "coming out through the same gate as in I went!"

 Alpha    dear you all , due regards for the genuine concern expressed, i too feel the same .

misguidance causing destruction.

make no mistake, humanity is heading f_o_r_  t_o_tal destruction with a_b_o_unding misguidance.

unless the cause is prevented, the effect cannot be .

to prevent the cause, we must understand the cause, search  for the best solutions,  not compromise.

only the best inputs result in the best output.

understand that

1  any being in the universe wants to evolve into a stature as big as universe it self., its true nature and right

2  every impulse of it is an attempt to accompli_s_h_ i_t_--earliest

3  if given the right direction, it reaches the goal easily and fast.

4  otherwise trial and error goes on, --mostly engaged in trivialities losing totality.

5  the experiments in trivialities will result into such individual loss and social evils, as sure by products.

i would say the world is surely engaged in trivialities --calling them by glorious names. poor it is not knowing the right purpose and path.

we in india have been fortunate , in having the knowledge and techniques well developed and well preserved in to traditions  to overcome such mistakes and help the world --no reinventing any is necessary --india only can finally help the world.

parents  teachers  ins_t_i_t_utions all have to come home to this knowledge and apply in life as fast as possible

as the roots go deeper so will tree flourish in all aspects.

where is the root of life ? it is deep within the self , in the field o_f_ U_nmanifested state of awareness.

what is the direction to it? turn within.

the more deep one travels within ,the more will be achievements out side, to be precise, all round achievements , in the manifested life around.

thru his own inner development, can an individual help others  and transformation of the individual and the world is natural result of it

let me assert,  there is no alternative.

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iota kappa lambda

14 February 2011 22:07:56

@ anthariksh 14 February 2011 09:37:22

Pleasantly and surprisingly, your posts appear to shed SOME light. However, here, there is a genuine problem to solve. In the posting of 14 February, you remark as a numbered item, “3  if given the right direction, it reaches the goal easily and fast”

Who is to direct right (and wrong) ?  If it is a 'person' or 'kithab', how do we ascertain their genuineness?...

My understanding depends on my senses. And they are biased as long as I have a desire to live. If that desire ends, then "I" end...

Even the best of my understanding goes only 'so little beyond my person'. In this situation of limited (imperfect) understanding I am in the dark, at least almost. How do I find the track I have to take? Which way is forward and which way backward?...???? Questions are aplenty. But never the answers!

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anthariksh

15 February 2011 08:02:43

alpha..namasthe, you inspire me by your query.

fast and easy is the approach of meditation, not person, not kithab, but a tradition  preserved in its pristine purity.

genuineness ascertained by its effectiveness in producing the results fast and easily.

understanding depends on mind experiencing the perceptions thru senses--of the objects, on surface level, only a part of the f_u_ll story, --the f_u_ll story revealing in proportion to  the depth of inner experience.

bias is a result of conditioned mind, cause of distorted understanding.

desire is not to be curbed, every f_u_lfilment of desire is a step of progress.

desirelessness is not  an aspect to cultivate, but a natural result of the experience of bliss, consequent to non existence of  i, --i,  having merged in the bigger  i  o_f_ _u_niverse,

best o_f_-u_nderstanding is not sufficient , experience, provides the f_u_ll. hence its necessity, and emphasis on it  by all wise .

you are right, ignorance is darkness.

inward is the way forward, withou_t _i_t, all ways are wayward.

in the light of experience all  questions vanish,  like the darkness disappearing once the light is lit .

it is instantaneous.

traditions provide the guidance. fortunately, we have innumerable traditions , handed over from generations to generations in their purity, starting from ''narayanam padma bhavam vasistham......shri sankaracharya .....maharishi maheshyogi'', one among .

whi_c_h_ i_s_ the best? big question

explore,experiment,find the best suited and liked by you

readers and sir may tolerate my impudence if. i stand to get corrected 

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iota kappa lambda

16 February 2011 02:29:38

@ anthariksh   15 February 2011 08:02:43

Somehow, I remain sceptical. How can the ignorant, get light through meditation?... Can a child, without any previous experience of any light, meditate and gain light?... If so, what is meditation? ...Is it concentrated thinking?...Deep thinking?...Meditate​​ on what?...Can an animal, that doesn't have some of the "abilities" of a man meditate?...I feel like "coming out through the same gate as in I went!"iota kappa lambda

16 February 2011 09:44:23

@ anthariksh Who you are I am not sure. My guess: one who keeps Mahesh Yogi and ancient Indian wisdom high. When I present my questions, it is not to glorify my view; neither to belittle yours. Only a kind of search; that is all...Perhaps, a joint effort, if you permit me.

“...a child more than 6...” That “six”, possibly means one with “some” experience. The implication may be: Meditation depends on previous experience. (that is why I included in my doubt, “what of animals who don't have some of the 'abilities' of man. Admitted, they too have experience) I may conclude, meditation is ON some 'previously acquired knowledge'. That may mean, meditation 'refines' our earlier 'knowledge'. Am I far from what you want me to understand?

Again, you say “...deepest and beyond”. That, to my mind means, beyond “thought” to some other area. For in the depth of thought there couldn't be, logically, anything beyond “deepest”. Possibly, you may be hinting at something beyond "senses”. If so I am sceptical. For senses appear to me, the only means of knowledge possible for man. If there is sometning beyond senses, ONLY throuhg our senses we can realize that possibility of the existence of that knowledge beyond senses.

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anthariksh

16 February 2011 10:38:55

alpha.. welcome, dear sir

Who you are I am not sure. My guess: one who keeps Mahesh Yogi and ancient Indian wisdom high.

you are right, thru tm i gained high ancient Indian wisdom in simplest way., not claiming my any thing, but tm has clarified a lot.

When I present my questions, it is not to glorify my view **** belittle yours. Only a kind of search; that is all.

most fair, we are one, sharing refines.

sear_c_h_ is valuable, ''knock, it shall be opened to you''

“...a child more than 6...” That “six”, possibly means one with “some” experience.

any one who can think, can meditate, nothing more required, even child

The implication may be: Meditation depends on previous experience. (that is why I included in my doubt, “what ****ut animals who don't have some of the 'abilities' of man. Admitted, they too have experience)

animals do not have ability to manipulate thought,whi_c_h- -is a subtle thing,  their mind works on gross plane

O****y conclude, meditation is ON some previously acquired 'knowledge'. That may mean, meditation 'refines' our earlier 'knowledge'.

the light of transcendent illumines the field of knowledge{earlier acquired}, which mostly exists in ,patches, [ being not f_u_ll]  and bridges the gaps, makes it whole, you may say refines

Am I far from what you want me to understand?

you are almost there but an inch of distance still to be covered

Again, you say “...deepest and beyond”. That, to my mind means, beyond “thought” to some other area.

yes, to the area from where thought sprouts pri_o_r  _t_o_ manifesting and becomes perceivable

For in the depth of thought there couldn't be, logically, anything beyond “deepest”.

totally righ_t_  _i_t_  is nothingness, a vacuum, vast, infinite

Possibly, you may be hinting at something beyond "senses”.

senses are gross tools of mind they have their role , as usual

If so I am sceptical.

in thinking process, mind is active , senses not involved .man is much more than senses, mind playing much more role,, a superior state, whi**** a desirable one, not deserving to be sceptical

For senses appear to me, the only means of knowledge possible for man.

definitely, but what is perceived is not total, but partial. to make it _f_u_ll, mind has to process much more and digest .there is ''more than meets the eye''

intellectual analysis/logic are in adequate, being the activities on the surface of mind, having thus limitation to fathom the depths, hence the need for direct experience, and hence the need of traditions.

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iota kappa lambda

16 February 2011 19:55:27

@   anthariksh        16 February 2011 10:38:55

My scepticism remains. My gut feeling (result of my previous experience, probably, arriving at some conclusions, which I may not consciously realize as taking place) is that 'senses cause the thinking process'. The possibility of a 'mind' existing outside the area of the senses appears very dim...The 'thought process' that gets refined during meditation appears very much the result of sensory experiences...True there are 'things' which cannot come to the notice of our 5 (or more, perhaps) senses, but we realize their existence through our deductions from our sensory observations. And, perhaps, we call those 'beyond senses' as spiritual, forgetting the fact that we cannot realize its existence without our senses.In other words, the word 'spiritual' is caused by our ignorance of the reality.

If it is acceptable a view, can't we reduce tm to a sensory feature?

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anthariksh

16 February 2011 21:16:56

alpha.. senses are gross extension of mind---film has to exist to receive image thru lens

'senses cause the thinking process'

yes, but thinking process continues too when senses are conveying

this proves existence of mind, a blind also thinks

''The 'thought process' that gets refined during meditation appears very much the result of sensory experiences''

no, refining happens due to in-march of, rather, in march happens in perceiving the thought in its earlier and earlier states of development, in this process senses turn inward, the activity of them reduces ,coming to 0 at the end

''True there are 'things' which cannot come to the notice of our 5 (or more, perhaps) senses, but we realize their existence through our deductions from our sensory observations''

yes but due to existence of mind in addition to senses, and happens in and by mind

senses are 5 of perception and 5 of action=10

again, senses are gross tools, processor is mind, whi****-is- subtle

''we call those 'beyond senses' as spiritual, forgetting the fact that we cannot realize its existence without our senses''

exactly! some unvisible are mental like our ability to store/recall/calcula​te

some -----much more unvisible are spiritual

''the word 'spiritual' is caused by our ignorance of the reality.''

rather by our cognition that some thing exists other than our familiar mind

''can't we reduce tm to a sensory feature?''

tm is not at a sensory level, it is a mental technique, unique.

there are other approaches to realization 1  on sensorylevel -- karma   pranayaam /bhajan/physical practicesetc  2  on intellectual level--gnyana --our discusion/swamijis discourses/books on philosophy  3  feeling level--bhakthi/poo****rayer etc

each has its suitability/effectiv​eness to suit different cons****utions/levels of individuals

explore  experience   select---is what is required

let me state, my suggestion is for going inward --by any approach--me not necessarily to stick to a system, nor me propagating any

tm is incidental in our discussion, and purely my personal choice out of many.

still if you ask me what is best , i have to say tm  is the bes**** has satisfied my all needs, simple, fast,easy, natural, just fits, no need of changing any aspect of life, universal

just 20 minutes morning and evening daily --but ,i repeat, to be learnt from a qualified instructor at centers.iota kappa lambda

17 February 2011 00:47:50

 

@   anthariksh       16 February 2011 21:16:56

In all humility, let me say, my scepticism doesn't disappear...At some level your view appears to move to the vague to establish the superiority of the 'beyond senses' over the senses. You appear to go to the analogy of the 'blind' to tell me something ****ut the senses. But the blind man has other senses and through them he realizes his surroundings. Doesn't he?

We humans, realize what you hint as the 'beyond senses' too, possibly, through our senses. Do we have any other 'window of knowledge'?

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iota kappa lambda

17 February 2011 19:52:54

 

  @   anthariksh       17 February 2011 09:59:09

You display many qualities, a teacher is likely to aspire to have. Perhaps you are a teacher. A goodly one at that; could even be godly. Thanks for the patience and care you showed.

For a learned discourse, I have neither any serious knowledge of modern psychology nor a deep understanding of the wisdom of the ancient. However, my gut feeling is this: “Life is a property of matter. When 'suitable conditions' are met, life evolves and continues to do so. Perhaps those conditions are set 'intentionally' by something transcendent. Perhaps it happens as an accident.... The senses are our (only?) windows through which we “see” (realize) reality. That something some say'knowledge beyond senses' is probably the result of previous sensory knowledge remaining submerged, but surfaces ocasionally, probably, unconsciously”... Of course this is not at all a 'profession-evaluate​​​​d' view; neither is it 'original'.

I like to fix the ancient wisdom of India into this view of reality, if possible. For there is some significance for Indian rational thought and it can be of some use to mankind in the present-world turmoil. Can we give a rooting to it, in the 21st century soil?

For example, what does transcendental mean? That transcends beyond senses? If so what is it? What evidence is there for its existence? Or, is it something moving towards the ultimate?... Or, if it is something else, the proponents would prefer to keep vague, it is a different matter? Some kind of Indian Rope Trick at the thought level, that is not to be taken seriously...

Your rising up on the wings of imagination and giving an ethereal aura to the word'vague' touched me... Where is it mentioned, “Forsooth only the gods may know. Forsooth even they may not”?...True, the 'vague' is, perhaps, related to the sublime.

However in a search for the 'true', perhaps, a precise defining of terms may be more suitable. Now permit me to meditate (not in a void or tending to the void) over the ideas you have supplied and come back to you after a while... But then, how to get in touch with you again, I wonder. On MSN space itself? After a month or so?... My respects.

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anthariksh

17 February 2011 20:48:08

alpha.. in msn only ,a month ok, i wait, addicted.

   brahmasuthras

    jayagurudeva

god is telling me to computorie richo and keepit in floppies/disks tapes and hard copies fresh and discard manuscripts yes i shall do it some olds and some new cognitions some elaborations some editing

waste not a single resource particularly time

preserve and enhance sath in the system and environ

add a unique id number to each person thing place and preserve its details  also

do not waste  my time, your time

jayagurudeva in each step iam either elaborating /expanding or   consolidating/contracting/compacting my self

my conciousness/veda//knowledge

i am pure knowledge

organise/arrange things and people

zerobase disown every thing every relation refresh restart newly and purify and take each carefully and focus

take one, complete it then take second

sathyam shivam sundaram

create beauty

in every output in every movement let besauty flow

source=shivam=athma

 To name me is to designate me 

to accomplish the impossible ,

to raise me , to enable me

to live that name,

to realize that name in real life ,

to shape me, to mold me ,

to sculpt me, to cast me, to construct me,

to paint me, to sharpen me , to elevate me,

from nothing, that i really am

from the colorless tasteless odorless raw material that i am

to enable me to grow as a personality

as an entity , as an individuality,

to become a visible god

from the invisible deeper potential at the core

Names make the forms

name is a seed sown in the consciousness,

sprouts, grows, becomes the form

good names create good personalities

bad names, curses, create bad personalities

naming is a great sanskar

New name is a new life

narendra is vivekananda

gautham is budha

rk is param hansa

mahesh is mahesh yogi

rajneesh is osho

kaushik is vishvamithra

We

have namavali 108 names, 1000 names,

each is a powerful seed

in fact one name is not sufficient for one individual

an individual is a bundle of infinite individuals ,

having different potential personalities to be activated

and brought to surface by appropriate names

now an anti climax, on the limitation of name!

there is much more than a name can tell ,

since ''name does negate''

any name is associated with form, qualities, characteristics,

dimensions, geo, time frame,

and so definitely ''negates'' the truth of one's indefinable grand existence ,

and is a binding and a hindrance, a veil, an obstruction,

so it's not a unmixed blessing ,

how to reconcile the great positive potential of name

with equally negative potential?

simple

on the upward journey to reach the nirgun nirakarpara brahman ,

to the core of our being, the fertile field

from which all potentialities manifest,

one must ''get rid of'' all limiting nama rupa guna ,

transcend , go beyond and reach that field .

once established in that field, now the glory of nama comes into picture

here is the stage the nama brings with it,

all the mahimas from that field as if seed sprouts and yields crop of all virtues associated with every name, into the manifest daily living of the individual ,

makes him mahimaanvitha .

here is the significance of all the names of all the gods

and one becomes the shiva if one wants

or vishnu if he wants, or lakshmi if s/he wants as per his/her need and desire

all gods are now playing with him , sharing their unlimited powers .

this is how one needs to be familiar with his ''nameless'' stature,

and also one needs to invoke the names and enjoy the ''name-fullness'' of that name

ie, one should be able to traverse from parabrahma to any loka transparently, by nama sankeerthan like narad and be also on the earth plane with his official aadhaar card or pan card etc

think on how saints truly overcame the negating /limiting / downsizing effect

of the the name , form, and biodata, and asserted their real grand stature

Let us see what adi shankara said for these FAQs

1 Who are you?

He did not say his name is shankara,

But he said

I am not these limiting features

I am that unmanifest absolute

Shivoham,

He asserted once again

shivah kevaloham

2 where are you from, ?

He did not say I am of kaladi,kerala

But he said

Swadesho bhuvanathrayam

My land is the entire three bhuvanas

3 who are your parents, kith and kin,

He did not say parents x , y

But he said

Matha cha parvathi devi

Pitha devo maheshvara

Bandhava shivabhkthasya

4 who is your guru?

He would have repeated simply he is so and so ,

but he asserted truly

My guru is

Gurur brahma gurur Vishnu, gururdevo maheshvara

Gurusakshath parabrahma

brahma, vishnu , maheshvara are my guru

verily, the unmanifest absolute is my guru

he again delimits the influence of name negating the true stature of his human guru

really , the saints are so wise not to get bound by any factor localizing their universal existence, miniaturize / or negate their infinite stature

 Art   let’s know  how music and all art forms  mediums evolved

''Geetham, Vadyam, tatha Nrithyam thrayam Sangeethamuchyathe.''

Combination of geetham (song), vadyam (instrument), nrithyam (dance) form sangeetham.

in this context, natya shahtra,and its details mudras, rasas, bhavas become significant,

basically spiritual pursuits lead us to capture the basics every aspect of life

when the basics are grasped, it is easy to comprehend the elaborations , and we get maximum joy in listening seeing the artistic expressions in the capacity of a connoisseur , a rasagna

thus i have developed interest in almost every branch of knowledge, internet sharing is a great help

as you said, there are opportunities to learn more

1 if you can deal ramayan, and mahabharath separately with 9 rasas applicability it will be good

we should not switch from one to other suddenly it causes some disturbance

2 visuals are distractions in the spiritual contemplation, blocks the mind in creating and enjoy its own created images

3 every scripture every episode has deeper meaning, what is the deeper meaning that you are getting out of this blog, and

4 what is the spiritual significance of navarasas in life in attaining mukthi, the prime goal?

5 do rasas require an external medium / stimuli for their manifestation

6 what are the fields in life which rasas have a major role

7 are rasas to be relished encouraged or to be despised and kept at a distance?

According to Bharata’s Natyashastra there are eight fundamental feelings or mental states referred to as Sthayibhavas which can be experienced by human beings. These are: Delight (Rati), Laughter (Hasya), sorrow (Soka), Anger (Krodha), Heroism (Utsaha), Fear (Bhaya), Disgust (Jugupsa), and wonder (Vismaya). Corresponding to these mental states are eight Rasas: the Erotic (srngara), the Comic (Hasya) the Pathetic (Karuna), the Furious (Raudra), the Heroic (Vira), the Terrible (Bhayanaka), the Odious (Bibhatasa), and the Marvelous (Adbhuta). A ninth Rasa, the Peaceful (Shanta) was later added.

The realisation of Rasa is said to result from the union of three interrelated elements – Vibhava, Anubhava and Vyabicaribhava and also the permanent mood called Sthayibhava.

For this question 7 are rasas to be relished encouraged or to be despised and kept at a distance?

 

in the light of your explanation, i tend to conclude,that rasas are inevitable effects and cannot be prevented from happening , so we to welcome them with the help of the permanent mood called Sthayibhava.

this is the correlation of feelings/mental states with rasas and more

“Our emotions are the gastric juices which transform this world of appearance into the more intimate world of sentiments. On the other hand, this outer world has its own juices, having their various qualities, which excite our emotional activities. This is called in our Sanskrit Rhetoric, Rasa, which signifies outer juices having their response in inner juices of our emotions. And a poem, according to it, is a sentence or sentences containing juices, which stimulate the juices of emotion. It brings to us ideas vitalized by feelings, ready to be made into the life-style of nature” Rabindranath Tagore

 

The fusion of Rasa theory and Bhakti is widely attributed to Rupa Gosvami, a disciple of Caitanya, who is credited with two key texts examining emotional devotion – the Bhaktirasamrtasindhu (“River of the Immortal Nectar of the Experience of Devotion”) and the Ujjvalanilamani (“The Effulgent Blazing Sapphire”). Emotional devotion begins with the ‘ordinary’ forms of love and desire felt by human beings, but the intention is to transform the ordinary into the sublime. Thus every devotee (regardless of background, caste etc.) is instructed to perform a set of basic practices. Whilst the Bhaktirasamrtasindhu details 64 Veidhi (“that which is based on rules”), there are five which are deemed to be ‘foundationational’:

* Recitation of the name of Krishna

* Remembering and savouring the exploits of Krishna as revealed in the Bhagavata Purana

* Serving the image of Krishna in temples

* Living in the company of holy men

* Living in the mandala of Mathura or Braj (Mathura is the reputed birthplace of Krishna)

By constantly turning one’s mind towards Krishna, the devotee begins a process which – gradually – becomes profound devotion. The basic human emotions are themselves insufficient, and must be continually refined. The devotee learns, progressively, to recognise all the various factors which either intensify or distract from this divine love. Gradually, the devotee learns how to transform the emotion (bhava) of ordinary desire (kama) into the pure and selfless love known as prema. For the advanced devotee, the 64 sadhanas are not mechanical ritual acts, but spontaneous expressions of love, the experience of which is to taste the Rasa – the pure essence of Love. Krishna is the source of Rasa, and there cannot, for devotees, be any Rasa apart from Krishna.

Any devotee whose mind is completely focused on Krishna will, it is said, involuntarily display evidence of that devotion, so that here, the Sattvikabhavas become markers of intense devotion.

 

Gosvami divides the path of the devotee into three stages. The first is that of Vaidhi-Bhakti, in which the devotee purifies his feelings using the aforementioned practices. The second stage is termed Raganuga-Bhakti – “the devotion of passion”. In this stage, the devotee is said to become a divine participant within the lila of Krishna, and does so by dwelling on the emotional feelings of love exchanged between Krishna and his parents, playmates, and the Gopis. Devotees engaged in Raganuga-Bhakti model their emotions on these divine ideal types. There are five appropriate moods: the Santa-Rasa (peaceful mood, as expressed for example, by meditating sages); the Dasya-Rasa (mood of servitude, as expressed by Krishna’s servants); the Sakhya-Rasa (mood of friendship); the Vatslya-Rasa (mood of parenthood – i.e. Krishna’s parents) and the Madhurya-Rasa (the conjugal mood expressed for example by the Gopis). Through Raganuga-Bhakti, the devotee is able to taste the Rasa (essence) of the players in Krishna’s lila. The final stage of devotion is that of Ragatmika-Bhakti – the perfected love of Krishna as experienced by the Gopis and other actors in Krishna’s Lila.

this is the great implied process of progressive transformation ,,the master key in this ''Emotional devotion begins with the ‘ordinary’ forms of love and desire felt by human beings, but the intention is to transform the ordinary into the sublime''.

Rasa is about human state of mind. Its about what the mind feels and the expression of the feeling thereafter. In the Bharata’s Natyashastra, Rasa is an emotion experienced by the audience created by the facial expression or the Bhava of the actor. In indian classical dance it is referred to as Rasa-abhinaya.

Human life is a rich fabric that is given colour and texture by the many happenings that shape it. The mundane actions that characterize every day as well as the extraordinary happenings that make and keep our lives interesting are all threads that get woven together to form this tapestry. The one thing that is common to all these threads is the fact that they evoke feelings in us, we respond to them with our emotions before they can become a part of our internal life. Indeed, life can be thought of as a continuous sequence of emotions that arise in various contexts and circumstances. These emotions, or rasas, are what give life different hues, shades and colours.

8 how the art of acting on the drama is related to nava rasas

9 is villain in real life is only actor

10 an actor acting a villain role how he feels on the rasa effect on his personality/ on personal life

11 are rasas are artificially induced, or natural responses?

9, 10 depends on how strong the personality the person carries.

 

11)Rasa can be understood as a dynamic experience between the artist, expression, and those who receive it. The artist experiences an emotion and is so overwhelmed by it that he seeks a medium with which to express those feelings. The one who views the artists’ work receives this emotion through the artists’ medium and so experiences the same emotion felt by the creator. The extent to which the viewer experiences the emotion felt by the creator depends on both the creator’s aptitude in presenting the work and the viewers’ aptitude to receive it.

''The extent to which the viewer experiences the emotion felt by the creator depends on both the creator’s aptitude in presenting the work and the viewers’ aptitude to receive it.''

leads me to say it is a factor of ''rasagnatha'' the capacity of the individuals to create , to share, to receive, it is a valuable trait of the personality, beyond the surface /superficiality

A key text which deals with the emotional theory of Rasa is the Natyashastra (the Textbook on Drama), attributed to Bharata Muni (some academics believe that it is more likely to be a compilation by several different authors). Bharata ascribed a divine origin to drama and considered it to be a fifth Veda. The Natyashastra primarily deals with theatre, dance & musical performance. According to the Natyashastra, the major purpose of dance, drama, ritual and poetry is catalytic in that aesthetic performance should provoke an emotion that is already present in members of the audience. The various elements of a performance combine to create a sympathetic response in those who experience them. Moreover, a member of the audience who has cultivated his or her own aesthetic response may experience a transformation of their own emotion into a purely aesthetic, transcendental feeling – an experience of divine bliss. This is the transformation of Bhava (“mood”) into its essence – Rasa. (NB: A scholar or connoisseur is sometimes referred to as a rasika).

---A scholar or ''connoisseur'' is sometimes referred to as a'' rasika''

yes, he discovers the value and enjoys more, in turn inspires the artist

digging deeper into the topic and making it more philosophical !

12 whether self realization , mukthi leads one to become of ''even vision, unpurturbed, unmoved, unaffected, untouched by rasas effect

13 krishna, ''the one yogastha '', excelled in which of the rasas more?

14 ,his way of '' not fighting the battle himself, but causing arjun to fight '' comes under what rasas, if at all ?

15, are rasas characteristic / specific to varnas, brahmana, kshathriya, vaisya, shoodra

16 are rasas characteristic / specific to male , female,

17 whether animals birds have rasanubhoothi or not?, they live in which rasas primarily

  human birth is the free gift , god has gifted the universe to each one of us along with life, and a limited longevity

2 but how much we make use of it , he has left to us , with a definite package of wisdom 

3 this wisdom can be enhanced to unlimited extent to expand the range of our command

4 a few are able to command enormously and majority others remain as foot soldiers with very limited abilities 

5 guru guides , one rises in command, what is the limit ?
no limits in fact , 

6 the ultimate height is to be the commander of the universe, vishvanath, jagannath, lokanath, prabhu, [not just names, these are meant to be actualized in life, that is why such names, indicating the possibility and the goal of existence

7 this ability is possible, on the basis of one becoming a gnanamurthi, a know-all in one life time .

when he knows all, the laws of nature are just open book to him, from inside, not from outside
 

8 outside books are helpful to the extent of providing the language/medium to transact with all in the universe clearly unambiguously

9 the real, true, authentic knowledge of all the laws of nature comes from within , which he may express in book or speech, his words will be flawless, universal, true, these revelations are the essential part of inner knowledge , and this knowledge gets internally updated every moment as the whole universe is updating itself each moment , hence will not become obsolete

10 and such a person is able to impart that precious knowledge to others as per need and eligibility, and thereby commands the authority on the teaching of the total knowledge, and hence he raises to be a jagadguru 

11 those who come in to this path of raising their wisdom similarly start progressing , and start to acquire the ability to read their inner script , will be self sufficient, masters, and will not be wanting in any of the spiritual glories , not needing to look outside for any help. 

12 these abilities will not come overnight, but gradually in proportion with their spiritual assignments prescribed by guru.
 

13, so we find different levels of such aspirants with greater or lesser abilities around , mostly they will be in the process of trekking the path towards perfection .

14 if we come across any such aspirants, we need not be in haste in concluding either -that he is perfect or he is ignorant . he will be at some stage, difficult to assess exactly how much .

15 if one interacts sufficiently with such aspirant , one comes to know the reality of his level at least approximately 
 

16,but world is in a hurry, it is quick to conclude what ever, with scanty stray encounters and assign a label to him , and miss / skip any possible benefit from such individuals 
 

17 or over estimate to his embarasment,/ harassment and expect him to marvel them with miracles which he is yet to learn to perform, and he not doing it, they start ridiculing and discounting

18 they see trivialities, tv cinema news papers and spend the life wastefully , thus world will be left steeped in ignorance ad theere by in problems 

19, once a while great writers start speculating and write for money name fame popularity and general public statrts devouring what they dole out , and start parrotting their words as quotes blogs etc, knowing not that what their stuff learnt is not authentic but half cooked

20 we , so conclude wrong hypotheses such as -- the love is the basis of spirituality , neither knowing what love is, nor how it generates nor how it happens in life . it is not their fault 

they repeat what ''great'' thinkers have written in ''big'' books .
it is unfortunate , added to this the secondary readers advance their own opinions , with no regard to truth / precision 
and wrong practices of pretensions of love happen , with never reaching true great heights of spirituality

This takes me to another story of glow worms and monkeys A small episode in pancha thanthra , the great, moral teaching classic for children 

During a winter night, three monkeys caught hold of a glow worm 
(it glows in the night, I don’t know its name in English), 
kept it in middle and some dry leaves on it 
and started blowing it,
with a hope that it will end up in a flame 
and they can become warmer.

A crow sitting on a branch of a tree nearby watching the complete action 
advised the monkeys that “it is only a glow worm and no fire can be made” 
by blowing repeatedly. 

The moneys looked at the crow ferociously and started blowing again.

When the monkeys tired of the action, 
the crow advised them once again about the futility of blowing. 
The three monkeys looked at each other and caught hold of the crow 
and killed it by ripping its body open.

this is the fate of a a wise person teaching truth to the ignorant believers 

neither can they understand nor are ready to receive the true knowlege.
i observed that when i pointed out certain needed correction s in a half baked blog by a master here, the sincere followers attacked me saying i am arrogant , and master only is right .
i just felt pity for them , they are the losers, i lost nothing 

so popularity is not the measure to assess the truth , truth to be confirmed by its own standard 
only gem experts know , not all, the value of gems